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aman 2
181 Posts |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2010 : 01:12:14 AM
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Sad but it was, after all, an Anglican community. Remember, the Anglicans are divided into three groups: the Traditional or High Anglicans, who are now petitioning Rome to escape from the rest; the Calvinistic or Low Anglicans, who don't really bother with silly things like sacraments because God has pre-ordained who's saved and who's not; and the broad Anglicans, which gave us the Episcopalian community here in the USA. The Piskies (as Mark Shea calls them) also gave us the great clown "Mass" photos that make the rounds on the internet, as well as all the ordinations they can muster, from women to gays and no doubt next will be animals. All stories like this one do is make me very humbly grateful to be Catholic, and pray for those poor people being led around by such blind guides.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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Jjane
Canada
1541 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 08:07:22 AM
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I read the story too , in Canada Aman, and it is really difficult to fathom, let alone know what to say.
If anything it "takes the temperature" of how bad things are, reflects the times. As does the firing of the Professor in Illinois who is teaching his faith in a religion class. Zero tolerance for right. Total tolerance for depravity.
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john654
USA
1292 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 08:12:34 AM
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Hi,
Here's one for ya! A friend of mine was waiting for a meeting at a Catholic Church, in Nashville, TN, when a Nun (who wears vestments and acts like a deacon at Mass) approached him with a basket of Consecrated Hosts and said, "would you like some Eucharist while you're waiting". TRUE STORY! Lately I have been praying for the People who are leaving the insanity of the Anglican Church for the Catholic Church to find an obedient Catholic Church that doesn't totally destroy their faith!
John
Contraception is a wedge driven into the most intimate sphere of communion known to man outside of the Holy Sacrament of the Mass. |
Edited by - john654 on 07/23/2010 08:13:56 AM |
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john654
USA
1292 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 08:23:56 AM
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Hi,
Is there anyone here who thinks what is OPENLY going on in the Anglican Church isn't going to happen in the Catholic Church soon. I say it will, and soon, that's my opinion. I think we are going to see Bishops, in America, act in the exact same way that some of the Anglican bishops do. I PRAY I'm wrong!
John
Contraception is a wedge driven into the most intimate sphere of communion known to man outside of the Holy Sacrament of the Mass. |
Edited by - john654 on 07/23/2010 08:25:55 AM |
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john654
USA
1292 Posts |
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artsippo
USA
5275 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 09:14:26 AM
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Strange things have been happening in the Catholic Church over the last 45 years as well, but the various liberal Protestant groups have been way out there for a longer time. I think that there could be some silliness like this 'dog receiving communion' stuff in Catholic Churches (after all, some misgiuded soul actaully gave Communion to Ted Kennedy a few years back which IMHO was almost as bad), but we have a stronger disciplinary systems and it would be stopped rather quickly.
It is just modernity. Vigilance is the price of freedom and maintaining the standards is the duty of those in the hierarchy.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
Edited by - artsippo on 07/23/2010 2:12:05 PM |
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Jjane
Canada
1541 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 09:49:58 AM
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I'm quite sure if Art wanted another career, ( unlikely) he could pass for a stand up comedian.
Half of comedy is pathos anyhow. |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 10:06:48 AM
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I don't believe it will happen here, or other places in the world. The weak and worldly bishops are being replaced with far better ones in terms of orthodoxy and willingness to shepherd their flocks. And I don't think Art was kidding about Ted Kennedy being given communion being about as bad as a dog being given communion. If/when the deceased senator received the Body and the Blood of the Lord unworthily, he was guilty of sacrilege. The dog is guilty of nothing because it is incapable of sinning, and because this happened at an ANGLICAN community, which means it was extremely doubtful that there was even a real Eucharist.
As for the priests sinning, that matters not at all when it comes to offering Mass. God in His mercy set it up so that the worthiness of the minister is not tied to the worthiness of the Sacrament. The idea that a priest's holiness or lack thereof affects his ordained ability to confect the Eucharist was declared heretical a long time ago, back in the age of St. Augustine, I think.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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Jjane
Canada
1541 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 10:14:33 AM
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There are many kinds of humour Patti. Ironic humour , for instance. And it's personal, so don't judge .
I don't think Art was kidding either, but he did make me laugh. 
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Edited by - Jjane on 07/23/2010 8:53:13 PM |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 12:35:42 PM
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Just so you understand, I wasn't saying it couldn't be taken humorously...only that it could also be taken seriously. 
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 1:46:28 PM
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To change the subject, I'm thinking about some things that can harm faith in Christ and His Church. Scandal is one. Looking for scandal is no doubt another. So is wading unprepared into enemy territory, or believing that faith can be proven true. It can be accepted as true, but needing proof to make it true is questionable ground in which to plant it. (Though, of course, maybe it could do for a start.) Focusing too much on the human face of the Church. This is something I've been puzzling over for a time. Input would be most welcome.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
Edited by - Patti on 08/05/2010 09:16:42 AM |
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artsippo
USA
5275 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 2:43:14 PM
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I for one believe that animals have souls. Simple souls. Too simple for them to ever displease God. And I think they do survive death. Like the title of that cartoon film, "All Dogs Go to Heaven." And cats. And horses, etc.
( I know that many scholars do not agree with me, but I have had too many pets who showed love a nd devotion to believe that they are not going to be in heaven. And some folks like C. S. Lewis agree withme. So I am sticking to my guns.)
But they are not human and as such cannot should not be given the sacraments. (Even though there is a story in the NT Apocrypha about a horse that was baptized and started talking.)
You see, TECHNICALLY, they are a part of unfallen nature and have no need of redemption. I came to recognize this one day when I was in England watching telvision with our cat, Cambridge, asleep in my lap. I realized he could never do anything morally evil and yet he was capable of loyalty and affection. For a fleeting moment I was envious of him. Then I remembered that he was dependant upon the kindness of his human masters and how precarious an existence that could be.
In any case, to give communion to a dog is a major violation of the integrity of Christian faith. Jesus warned agaisnt taking hte Children's bread and casting it to the dogs (Matt 15:16, Mark 7:27). You don't need to be a Fundamentalist to see the irony in what happened in hte story that started this thread.
If you want to see a humourous take on Anglican antics with animals, check THIS out:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100019748/caligula-converts-makes-his-horse-a-bishop/
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 3:01:30 PM
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Animals do not possess immortality. Their souls cease when their lives cease. They were created for our good until we reach the ultimate Good that is God.
Due to their inability to sin, they also cannot merit being in Heaven as a reward. After initial justification---freely bestowed on man by God---such merit is granted by our cooperation with God's grace via free will, which animals also do not possess. Animals also do not possess a human intellect, which enables them to be self-aware and also aware of their relationship to the rest of the universe, including God.
Animals are naturally good, but natural goodness does not merit the supernatural reward that awaits man after death. If natural goodness was sufficient to enter Heaven, there would be no need of the Incarnation, the sacraments and the Gospel.
It was Aquinas who examined our likeness to God reflecting the three aspects of God He has revealed to us: Immortality, intellect and free will. Man possesses these attributes because of his likeness to God; animals do not.
So, while it is sentimental to believe we can be with our pets in Heaven, it is not supported by Church teaching to positively state that this is feasible. Of course, we'll find all things out when we leave this earth.
http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/pets_in_heaven.htm
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
Edited by - Patti on 07/23/2010 3:29:17 PM |
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artsippo
USA
5275 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 11:07:51 PM
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Patti sez:
quote:
Animals do not possess immortality. Their souls cease when their lives cease. They were created for our good until we reach the ultimate Good that is God.
Nah. That is just a majority opinion from the ivory tower. I don't agree.
And please remember that NOBODY earns heaven per se. It is gift. I cannot imagine heaven without life other than us sorry humans. Some of the cats I had were very special. I think there will be a place for them there.
In a New Heaven and a New Earth, I think there will be new life of all types. If we are to be resurrected into new bodies, if there are no animals or plants, what will we eat? Eating is one of the great joys of life and it connects us tot he world around us. We are what we eat. Even Jesus had a good meal with the Apostles after the resurrection.
We will see. I bet you a shiny new nickel that we will see animals in Heaven.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
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Jjane
Canada
1541 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2010 : 11:27:32 PM
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Well I for one never thought we would descend to welcoming a horse's ass - but
if you really want to know what amused me , it was the reference to a certain "lion" or "scion" of a certain well known family, and certain above comparisons.
Also this week on the subject of "partrige in a pear tree" I saw a peacock in a tree.
This was most surprising. I have not yet recovered. |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2010 : 12:52:17 AM
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I did say we couldn't know for sure until we die. 
There is however no Biblical evidence to support it. On the other hand, there is nothing patently against it. So it falls into God's realm as to how He's going to outfit the new Heaven and the new Earth. Methinks if animals are anywhere, it will be on the "Earth" part.
quote:
I cannot imagine heaven without life other than us sorry humans.
Well, you know the verse: Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, etc.... Since we can't imagine what is in Heaven, it does not fall to us to limit Heaven to what we imagine it to be or what we want it to be.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
Edited by - Patti on 07/24/2010 12:55:06 AM |
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Jjane
Canada
1541 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2010 : 07:39:13 AM
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| Animals are very loyal and simple and uncomplicated. Who knows? |
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john654
USA
1292 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2010 : 08:53:27 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by john654[/i]
[br]Hi,
Here's one for ya! A friend of mine was waiting for a meeting at a Catholic Church, in Nashville, TN, when a Nun (who wears vestments and acts like a deacon at Mass) approached him with a basket of Consecrated Hosts and said, "would you like some Eucharist while you're waiting". TRUE STORY! Lately I have been praying for the People who are leaving the insanity of the Anglican Church for the Catholic Church to find an obedient Catholic Church that doesn't totally destroy their faith!
John
Contraception is a wedge driven into the most intimate sphere of communion known to man outside of the Holy Sacrament of the Mass.
The catholic church I was talking about released a video: http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2010/08/holy-heretic-batman.html
I pray that Christians who are looking at the Catholic Church DON'T end up at St. Edwards. The only catholic church I LITERALLY ran out of because I felt the presence of the devil!
John
Contraception is a wedge driven into the most intimate sphere of communion known to man outside of the Holy Sacrament of the Mass. |
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rr1213
4467 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2010 : 10:54:58 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]To change the subject, I'm thinking about some things that can harm faith in Christ and His Church. Scandal is one. Looking for scandal is no doubt another. So is wading unprepared into enemy territory, or believing that faith can be proven true. It can be accepted as true, but needing proof to make it true is questionable ground in which to plant it. (Though, of course, maybe it could do for a start.) Focusing too much on the human face of the Church. This is something I've been puzzling over for a time. Input would be most welcome.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare.
Unfortunately, the reality is that we must focus on the human face of the Church, including the scandals. Yes, the Church is pure but the folks who make up the Church are not. The Scriptures speak of bearing good fruit and when we encounter again and again the sexual scandals which have plagued the Church in recent decades, it seriously undercuts our witness for Christ because people perceive the "bad fruit" of sinful man more easily than the "good fruit" of the Christian life. |
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rr1213
4467 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2010 : 10:57:20 AM
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| As for animals in heaven or on the new earth, what about the prophesy that the lion will lay down with the lamb? |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2010 : 11:49:45 AM
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Oh, I don't mind the idea of focusing on the human face of the Church, only too much focus on it. I just think it can lead to despair if too much emphasis is put on those who fail to live up to the promise of their baptisms.
As for the lion and the lamb (which is not word-for-word found in Isaiah 11 and 65, but a combination of images), perhaps this is a literal prophesy of what the new earth will be like. Then again, they can be symbolic of the Catholic Church, which is considered the Kingdom of God. In the Church, we have pacifistic clergy and religious and we have the fiercest of fighting men and women. They are far apart in calling but one in being called by God and responding to His call.
As Chesterton noted in Orthodoxy, chapter six:
quote:
So it is also, of course, with the contradictory charges of the anti-Christians about submission and slaughter. It is true that the Church told some men to fight and others not to fight; and it is true that those who fought were like thunderbolts and those who did not fight were like statues. All this simply means that the Church preferred to use its Supermen and to use its Tolstoyans. There must be some good in the life of battle, for so many good men have enjoyed being soldiers. There must be some good in the idea of non-resistance, for so many good men seem to enjoy being Quakers. All that the Church did (so far as that goes) was to prevent either of these good things from ousting the other. They existed side by side. The Tolstoyans, having all the scruples of monks, simply became monks. The Quakers became a club instead of becoming a sect. Monks said all that Tolstoy says; they poured out lucid lamentations about the cruelty of battles and the vanity of revenge. But the Tolstoyans are not quite right enough to run the whole world; and in the ages of faith they were not allowed to run it. The world did not lose the last charge of Sir James Douglas or the banner of Joan the Maid. And sometimes this pure gentleness and this pure fierceness met and justified their juncture; the paradox of all the prophets was fulfilled, and, in the soul of St. Louis, the lion lay down with the lamb. But remember that this text is too lightly interpreted. It is constantly assured, especially in our Tolstoyan tendencies, that when the lion lies down with the lamb the lion becomes lamb-like. But that is brutal annexation and imperialism on the part of the lamb. That is simply the lamb absorbing the lion instead of the lion eating the lamb. The real problem is -- Can the lion lie down with the lamb and still retain his royal ferocity? That is the problem the Church attempted; that is the miracle she achieved.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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Jerry-Jet
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2010 : 3:10:30 PM
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I think if there was any instance where St. Aquinas was partially wrong it would be his teachings regarding animals.
Man brought death to creation and to the animals--they did not bring it upon themselves.
Now God could choose that animals would only have finite lives or finite souls.
But if it is a matter of God being JUST--then a JUST God would not deprive animals of immortal life for their animal sprits because of Adam and Eve sinning and bringing death into creation.
To be sure Jesus did cast unclean spirits into swine that ran off a cliff and drowned in the sea.
We know that that was a just and right thing for Jesus never sins.
Ecleasiastes 3:21 is the clincher for me against people who claim to KNOW that animals will not have an after life.
Look up the verse and ask yourself--Why did the Holy Spirit INSPIRE that verse to be written?!
"Who knows that the spirit of man rises up in the air and the spirit of the beast goes down to the Earth?"
The Holy Spirit is telling us--WHO KNOWS!
I wonder how St. Thomas Aquinas would square that verse with HIM KNOWING?!
Here's my guess--maybe animals have spirits and not souls and if we see animals in heaven it will be not because God resurrected their animal bodies and reunited them with animal souls but because He gave them NEW animal bodies that would be reunited to their animal spirits and that then they would be fit for the New Jerusalem. |
Edited by - Jerry-Jet on 08/08/2010 3:20:20 PM |
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shaking my head
