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William Albrecht
22 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2009 : 11:32:15 PM
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Hello brothers in the faith, as many of you already know, I am apologist for the Catholic Legate. I wanted to link up to a video that I made recently. It's in response to an article by a Protestant ministry that claimed Catholics are MISQUOTING St. Athanasius when they cite a HOMILY of his. This latest attack claims that Catholics are using SPURIOUS quotes to bolster thier claims on St. Athanasius. Nothing could be FARTHER from the truth and this video examines the fallacious arguments that are being put forth.
It only saddens me that Protestants are having to now attempt to rip quotes away from Fathers in order to try and make them fit into their system of beliefs.
Kind of reminds you John Calvin eh..the man who denied the authenticity of ANYTHING St. Ignatius wrote because of how Catholic it was.
Anyhow, here's the video! GOD BLESS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjEqckKFaKM |
Edited by - William Albrecht on 02/28/2009 11:35:13 PM |
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MonFrere
USA
1213 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2009 : 11:32:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by William Albrecht
Hello brothers in the faith, as many of you already know, I am apologist for the Catholic Legate. I wanted to link up to a video that I made recently. It's in response to an article by a Protestant ministry that claimed Catholics are MISQUOTING St. Athanasius when they cite a HOMILY of his. This latest attack claims that Catholics are using SPURIOUS quotes to bolster their claims on St. Athanasius. Nothing could be FARTHER from the truth and this video examines the fallacious arguments that are being put forth.
It only saddens me that Protestants are having to now attempt to rip quotes away from Fathers in order to try and make them fit into their system of beliefs.
Kind of reminds you John Calvin eh..the man who denied the authenticity of ANYTHING St. Ignatius wrote because of how Catholic it was.
Anyhow, here's the video! GOD BLESS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjEqckKFaKM
William (grnhead),
Thanks for posting your YouTube rebuttal. I think your arguments makes AOMIN's arguments into non-arguments. I will say, that I depend on people as yourself, people who study the nitty-gritty of the ECF or Church History to help me get through the refutations that those in the Protestant camp bring against the Church. So, on the question of knowledge I cannot help you very much.
I will say this, given only to help a brother make stronger presentations. I did have to listen to your video three times to gather the information where I really understood it clearly.
Mostly, it was on the pace and pronunciation of your presentation. For myself, one who reads more than goes to lectures, I often will give myself a mispronunciation of a word - and then when I hear that word SPOKEN - I may miss what I'm hearing and then all of a sudden it clicks and the light bulb goes off in my mind. I remember when I was studying things out before I became Catholic - I didn't have a clue as to the pronunciation of the ECF and in my mind I was reading of St. AWE-gus-teen; and not St. ah-GUS-tin. In your presentation it took awhile before I understood your reference to AOMIN -- before I heard this spoken whenever I read of AOMIN I never gave it a pronunciation but just the thought that this was James Whites apologetic ministry.
As a suggestion maybe when you present a word; especially of foreign origin; e.g. the french patristic scholar you mention (I assume he's french) maybe you could have these terms on a "white board" so the connection between visual and aural can be properly made. This would be helpful to people at "my level" - I'm an educated person; but in a different field.
Just a little more clarity on your pronunciation would be helpful. I think the information you give and the logic with which it is presented his very solid. But for a person like me - someone who may not have heard the correct pronunciation of people - terms - and places etc. to hear this presented aurally - clarity of pronunciation is pretty important so you can be as effective as possible to refute those who gainsay the faith of our fathers. I think all the members of Speak Your Mind have a special place in our hearts to see certain gainsayers of the faith properly and effectively refuted.
Very best,
MonFrere
If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. G.K. Chesterton
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Edited by - MonFrere on 03/01/2009 11:33:30 PM |
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Avelino
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 10:52:59 AM
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Great video William!
By the way, I heard of the sad news of your brother passing away. I have said a prayer for your brother, you and your family.
Yours in Christ,
Avelino
In the begining God created man in his own image. Ever since that time man has been trying to return the favor. - Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen |
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Patti
USA
7387 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 11:34:13 AM
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Hi, William,
That was a very good video, as usual.
If it's not too much trouble, could you provide a list of your resources here? That way White's group could get it, too, since they tend to hover about the forum mining for material (by Art or Patrick, or to mock my editing) to use in a blog entry when they run a little dry. You'd be doing everyone a real ecumenical service! 
Actually, I'd be interested in looking into this more deeply. I have no fear the Church is using the ECFs correctly and in context, but it's good to have resources to impress those dazzled by human scholarship instead of mindful of the Holy Spirit. 
My condolences on the loss of your brother. May his soul be swiftly brought to the comfort and light of Our Lord's Presence by the intercession of Our Queen of the Most Holy Rosary.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
Edited by - Patti on 03/02/2009 11:36:45 AM |
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artsippo
USA
5257 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2009 : 7:45:02 PM
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More nonsense from AOMIN by the 'son of lies.' Good job, William. Why do these guys lie so much? I truly think that in their heart, they are revelling in their disobedience towards God. One reason why I think some people go into 'ministry' is to capture God in a conceptual box of their own devissing and control His revelation. It puffs them us. The Greeks had a word for this kind of thing: hubris. They considered it the deadliest of sins.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
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rr1213
4459 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 1:54:28 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by artsippo[/i]
[br] Why do these guys lie so much? I truly think that in their heart, they are revelling in their disobedience towards God.
I would not go so far to say that these folks are "revelling in their disobedience towards God" because for us to make that claim would require that we judge the hearts of these men, a task beyond both our abilities and our jurisdiction. It is enough to point out where they are in error. |
Edited by - rr1213 on 03/03/2009 1:55:25 PM |
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William Albrecht
22 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 7:25:03 PM
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Thanks Art. I think the answer lies in the fact that they are quite desperate. If you can find the Fathers to support your Faith then maybe you can say your faith can line up with that of the Ancient one. It must bother Protestantism that their core doctrines and others have no place in Early Christianity. Therefore they make it an agenda to try and twist them out of context. The mere fact that they are twisting them out of context is dishonesty and they should do their best to try and stop doing such. You know AOMIN are getting desperate when they being trying to dismiss quotations completely!
To Patti:
For anyone wishing a list of my resources(which are a few books as well as about two sites and some material in French and Latin) then you can get in touch with me at
gnrhead@gmail.com
GOD BLESS you!
http://www.youtube.com/gnrhead
gnrhead@gmail.com
http://www.godtube.com/Catholic
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Patti
USA
7387 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 7:52:47 PM
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Thanks, William. You know, I wasn't kidding about the lurkers. Sure you don't want to give 'em something to chew on that will hurt their teeth? 
I'll drop you a line as you prefer. Just please check your incoming spam to make sure my message gets through okay. And don't sweat the French and Latin resources; my husband is pretty good with the former and I can stumble through the latter, and if I get stuck, the JPII priests at our parish can help me.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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artsippo
USA
5257 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 9:33:08 PM
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Rob sez:
quote:
I would not go so far to say that these folks are "revelling in their disobedience towards God" because for us to make that claim would require that we judge the hearts of these men, a task beyond both our abilities and our jurisdiction. It is enough to point out where they are in error.
I have first hand knowledge of the prevaricator in this case. I know of whence I speak.
I have debated several professional anti-Catholics and I can tell you that they are less interested in the truth than in mocking the Church and defaming her members. You don't need to be a telepath to know what is in their hearts when they spit hate and lies at you.
There is a broad consensus on a wide range of theological and biblical studies between real Catholic and Protestant scholars but the professional anti-Catholics repudiate such modern scholarship in favor of the the blatant bigotry and outdated opinions of the 19th Century when Protestant theology was far too tainted with apologetics.
Abuse of the Church Fathers (what I call Ecclesiastical Elder Abuse) has been rampant among the more vocal and ignorant among the anti-Catholics. The same prevaricator we are talking about continues to claim that Catholics worship Mary. We had one fellow who claimed that the Council of Ephesus "didn't count" and that St. Augustine repudiated the title "Mother of God." It was pathetic. A few years ago we had a fellow on this board claiming that the Fathers did not interpret John 6 as a statement about the Eucharist. I buried him with references repudiating this and he admitted that he was lying but he had hoped that we Catholics were too ignorant to be able to refute him. I could go on and on. I frankly have no respect for these people.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
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MonFrere
USA
1213 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 10:02:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by artsippo
There is a broad consensus on a wide range of theological and biblical studies between real Catholic and Protestant scholars but the professional anti-Catholics repudiate such modern scholarship in favor of the the blatant bigotry and outdated opinions of the 19th Century when Protestant theology was far too tainted with apologetics.
I find this to be absolutely true. I think many Protestants involved in apologetics are absolutely FRIGHTENED of being in agreement with anything that comes from Catholic thought. I often try to encourage Protestants to go to their "better angels" because some are seeing that past paths that were taken were false paths. Even to get some Protestants to understand that Mary is "theotokos" is a HUGE leap for them. The term "Mother of God" is simply too Catholic for them to accept -- yet, this is really not an issue with some of the better Protestant scholars.
I think there isn't going to be much positive movement is Protestant/Catholic relations UNTIL Protestants quit playing the "fear card" and become more honest. I really do NOT see this attitude at all in the evangelical and fundamentalist arms of the Protestant Church. It's as if these people LOVE DARKNESS because it gives them the cover they need to not face the poverty of their thinking. For someone accustomed to darkness, light becomes blinding.
Another point that Art alludes to that I've found to be right on the money is that apologetics, for me, doesn't provide the BEST ANSWERS to make a defense of Catholic truth. I've just read a book called "The Meaning of Grace" by Charles Cardinal Journet and I found a non-apologetic exposition of grace to be so much more potent to help me in explaining the Catholic understanding of grace to a Protestant than any apologetically focussed answer. This is not saying that apologetic writing is not helpful -- it's very helpful; but I think its much BETTER to study any theological concept OUTSIDE and apologetic context to see the broad picture and therefore have the ability to speak with a broader context than the more narrowly defined apologetic context. ....... Which is why I really like the work that William Albrecht provides on his YouTube debates. His replies tap into a very deep wellspring of Catholic theology/history that provide comprehensive answers to many Protestant claims.
MonFrere
If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. G.K. Chesterton
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Edited by - MonFrere on 03/05/2009 10:06:43 PM |
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Patti
USA
7387 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 11:25:50 PM
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I think Rob is pointing to the risk of crossing a line between recognizing anti-Catholicism and taking over the judgment seat of God. We cannot know precisely what motivates those who obstinately spew venom against the Church. Arrogance may mask deep insecurity; self-deception may provide cover from facing one's own faults rather than deal with them. However, Art makes a very valid point, also, in that Our Lord Himself said that what comes out of a man's mouth is far more important than what goes into him. If someone hears a Catholic explain for the hundredth time that we do not worship Mary like we do Jesus and then insists we do, it's time to shake dust from the sandals and head onward to somewhere else.
But we should also pray for that poor soul trapped in his willful ignorance and spite against Catholicism. Even the fellow to whom Art refers needs our prayers, and Art is a generous enough person to pray for his enemy. One thing that is noticeable in some Protestants is an over-reverence given to human scholarship and an accompanying snobbishness; whose grasp of Koine Greek is bigger and better? Catholics have great scholars, too, but many of them are humble enough to realize that it is God from Whom they received their gifts, and it is His Magisterium that has the final say on what they research and teach.
One very peculiar trend that has emerged in recent times is the use of the ECF by some Protestant polemicists to attempt to undermine the Catholic Church's doctrines. (This is generally done by taking the ECF out of context or giving their words a Protestant interpretation.) The reason this is so strange is that even Sola Scriptura Protestants do this, which is puzzling, as they do not give the ECF the same authority they do to Scripture, and yet they try to use the authority of the ECF to support their view of Scripture as the only authority to come from God. Shouldn't Scripture alone be enough for that, and if it isn't, doesn't that disprove Sola Scriptura in that the Scriptures do not have enough authority to prove they do?
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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rr1213
4459 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 07:56:23 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]One very peculiar trend that has emerged in recent times is the use of the ECF by some Protestant polemicists to attempt to undermine the Catholic Church's doctrines. (This is generally done by taking the ECF out of context or giving their words a Protestant interpretation.) The reason this is so strange is that even Sola Scriptura Protestants do this, which is puzzling, as they do not give the ECF the same authority they do to Scripture, and yet they try to use the authority of the ECF to support their view of Scripture as the only authority to come from God. Shouldn't Scripture alone be enough for that, and if it isn't, doesn't that disprove Sola Scriptura in that the Scriptures do not have enough authority to prove they do?
Let me say first that my knowledge of the ECFs in woefully inadequate and, prior to hobknobbing with Catholics on various apologetics boards, probably the only Church Fathers I had ever heard of were St. Augustine and St. Jerome. Nonetheless, what I think you are seeing here with this "trend" by Protestant apologists is an attempt to nullify a Catholic advantage in the apologetic battle. These folks know that we, as Catholics, place much emphasis on the ECFs and they are trying to convert a Catholic "advantage" into a Protestant "advantage" by trying to show that the ECFs supposedly support Protestant doctrines. Instead of simply dodging the allegorial hole set in your path by your adversary, turn that hole into a mountain that favors your side. In other words, turn your disadvantages into advantages. I think that is more what they are attempting, as opposed to trying to prove sola scriptura by reference to the ECFs. |
Edited by - rr1213 on 03/06/2009 07:58:13 AM |
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rr1213
4459 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 07:58:49 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]I think Rob is pointing to the risk of crossing a line between recognizing anti-Catholicism and taking over the judgment seat of God. We cannot know precisely what motivates those who obstinately spew venom against the Church. Arrogance may mask deep insecurity; self-deception may provide cover from facing one's own faults rather than deal with them.
Exactly. |
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Patti
USA
7387 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 08:59:12 AM
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quote:
Let me say first that my knowledge of the ECFs in woefully inadequate and, prior to hobknobbing with Catholics on various apologetics boards, probably the only Church Fathers I had ever heard of were St. Augustine and St. Jerome. Nonetheless, what I think you are seeing here with this "trend" by Protestant apologists is an attempt to nullify a Catholic advantage in the apologetic battle. These folks know that we, as Catholics, place much emphasis on the ECFs and they are trying to convert a Catholic "advantage" into a Protestant "advantage" by trying to show that the ECFs supposedly support Protestant doctrines. Instead of simply dodging the allegorial hole set in your path by your adversary, turn that hole into a mountain that favors your side. In other words, turn your disadvantages into advantages. I think that is more what they are attempting, as opposed to trying to prove sola scriptura by reference to the ECFs.
It still seems incongruous; the examples I have in mind actually try to use the ECFs to show that they believed in and practiced Sola Scriptura, which really wasn't the case when one reads St. Irenaeus going on about the authority of the bishops. In this case, a history is being invented by a group that threw off centuries of traditional history with regard to Scripture and now is trying to do the same with the ECF. The result is anachronistic as someone's preconceived ideas are retrojected into these writings. The Church did things the other way around, developing organically with Scripture, the ECF and tradition as foundations built on the rock of the papacy.
Augustine and Jerome are favorites of Protestantism because there are some passages that appear to support the supreme authority of Scripture in Augustine, and Jerome didn't like the Septuagint canon for the OT but favored the Hebrew one. Unfortunately, the idea of authority that was muddled at the time of the Reformation continues to confuse today. What never seems to be recalled (or is rejected if recalled) is that even the Church's most brilliant scholars and theologians are subject to the Magisterium. Aquinas would have burned all of his writings or handed them over to be burned if Rome had ordered it. (That he didn't have to shows that the Holy Spirit is at work, for in his time, much of his work was not understood and some of it remains that way.) In essence, the question that divides Protestants from the Catholic Church and sometimes from each other is what or who has authority. The Church says it's the Church's interpretation of Scripture and Tradition, and most Protestants say it's the Scriptures alone.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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artsippo
USA
5257 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 07:33:48 AM
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We also have to remember that while you can't ALWAYS judge a book by its cover, you often can. It is one thing for a person to make a personal judgment that they do not agree with Catholic teaching. It is another thing for them to make a living by telling lies about the faith of other people.
Professional anti-Catholics try to find the most obscure topics by which to trash the Church and are not terribly concerned with getting the facts straight. Meanwhile they are completely impervious to fraternal correction.
If you have the temerity to disagree with them, they attack your integrity and insult you in every way possible. If you return the favor, (ie, tell them they are lying and rebuke them for it) they act like wounded dogs. After suffering from such double standards, it is hard to see these people as being sincerely Christian.
Art
P.S.- BTW, Rob. "The Cost of Discipleship" just came out unabridged on CD. I've got my copy. Good book.
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
Edited by - artsippo on 03/11/2009 12:55:12 PM |
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rr1213
4459 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 07:51:12 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by artsippo[/i]
[br]P.S.- BTW, Rob. "The Cost of Discipleship" just came out unabridged on CD. I've got my copy.
On CD? You mean with somebody reading the book audibily? It's a good book. I think that it has something to say to most of us. |
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Jjane
Canada
1534 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 6:17:32 PM
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" If you have the temerity to disagree with them, they attack your integrity and insult you in everyway possible." says Art
And that is childish.
The truth sounds like the truth, no matter how it is approached. |
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artsippo
USA
5257 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2009 : 1:05:34 PM
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I think it is worse than merely childish. It is sign of hubris: human pride that brings down the wrath of God.
Look, If someone wants to say that they disagre with the Catholic Church, that's fine. But when they not only disagree but puff themselves up as if they were infallible and anyone who disagrees with them is malicious, that is another matter.
I have seen the professional ACBs (Anti-Catholic Bigots) corrected when they are wrong time and time again and yet they still have maintained their errors and sought in every way possible to impugn the integrity of those who corrected them. It forms a very clear pattern of deliberate and malicious misprepresentation and character assassination.
That is not IMHO merely childish. I find it to be demonic.
In my PROFESSIONAL opinion several of the ACBs are both mentally and spiritually disturbed. I have seen good people try to reason with the ACBs and come away mentally distraught and spiritually oppressed by the hatred they encountered. Naive good will is of no us against the ACBs. They serve a "Lower Power" and are very dangerous.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
Edited by - artsippo on 03/12/2009 11:33:20 AM |
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Jjane
Canada
1534 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 09:48:45 AM
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ok Art: you know of what you speak:" I have seen the professional ACBs (Anti-Catholic Bigots) corrected when they are wrong time and time again and yet they still have maintained their errors and sought in every way possible to impugn the integrity of those who corrected them. It forms a very clear pattern of deliberate and malicious misprepresentation and character assassination."
and Speaking of demonic, the abortion centres are that. |
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artsippo
USA
5257 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 11:35:45 AM
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No question, Jane. I knew a Catholic lawyer in Toledo who did pro bono work for a local right to life group and he deposed the owner of a local abortion abatoir. He said she had the deadest eyes he had ever seen and it frightened him.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro! |
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Jjane
Canada
1534 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2009 : 4:38:31 PM
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[quote][i]Originally posted by artsippo[/i]
[br]No question, Jane. I knew a Catholic lawyer in Toledo who did pro bono work for a local right to life group and he deposed the owner of a local abortion abatoir. He said she had the deadest eyes he had ever seen and it frightened him.
Art
Omnes semper - ad Jesum, per Mariam, cum Petro!
[/quote
Someone gave us Blessed salt, used for exorcism, to go round the abortion centre] |
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Do Catholics misquote St. Athanasius?
