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William
USA
721 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2009 : 01:17:11 AM
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If Nancy Pelosi is one of the main legislators when FOCA is brought to the floor, will this cause her to be formally censured or excommunicated by her Bishop.
She has now been counseled by the Pope. Her spokesperson stated that she will not change her position[we need to pray for a change of heart]according to EWTN.
The reason I ask this is I think the fallout from this kind of discipline would bring a harsh fallout from the Dems.
William |
Edited by - William on 02/24/2009 3:54:56 PM |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 07:27:52 AM
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Do you mean Pelosi was counseled (as in advised) by the pope regarding life issues? He said something to that effect on February 18th. Even earlier in February, Archbishop Burke said that the reception of Holy Communion remains a source of great concern to Rome:
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31984
Back in 2004, this came up, starting with the Vatican and moving through the bishops. Some, such as the Cardinal of Chicago, refused to do what Rome wanted. Others did. If this is coming up again, perhaps this time the bishops will show a more united front. We need it desperately.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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Jjane
Canada
1541 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 08:36:59 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]Do you mean Pelosi was counseled (as in advised) by the pope regarding life issues? He said something to that effect on February 18th. Even earlier in February, Archbishop Burke said that the reception of Holy Communion remains a source of great concern to Rome:
http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31984
Back in 2004, this came up, starting with the Vatican and moving through the bishops. Some, such as the Cardinal of Chicago, refused to do what Rome wanted. Others did. If this is coming up again, perhaps this time the bishops will show a more united front. We need it desperately.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare.
Speaking of American Bishops, we were lucky enough to hear Bishop Chaput last evening. He braved the Canadian winter, to come speak , mostly outlining his new book, Render unto Caesar ...
He was very popular here and got lots of questions.
A friend, who was with me, says she has been writing to him for years, and he always writes back. |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 3:50:58 PM
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Sorry for my misspelling.
My education level comes to the for-front again.
Yes she was counseled by the Pope. She was expecting a red carpet but instead got called on the carpet.
New Advent.com reported on the meeting giving both the Popes version of the meeting and the spin Mrs. Pelosi gave it. Also Raymond Arroyo for EWTN reported on the same comments with comments from a Bishop.
I was surprised that know one here had comment on this when this happened. A spokesperson also said that Mrs. Pelosi would not be changing her position on abortion. What is left to do.
William |
Edited by - William on 02/24/2009 3:53:49 PM |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2009 : 4:44:25 PM
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quote:
I was surprised that know one here had comment on this when this happened.
We were waiting for you to do it. 
As for spelling, I wasn't trying to poke fun at you; if somehow Nancy Pelosi had broken down, repented of her stance on abortion and the pope had consoled her, that would have been very good news. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened...yet. Maybe it will. Where there's life, there's hope.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
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MonFrere
USA
1216 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 10:11:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Patti
Unfortunately, that hasn't happened...yet. Maybe it will. Where there's life, there's hope.
I think it would be GRRRRREAT if just ONE of our current crop of dissident Catholics in D.C. would repent. Pelosi would certainly be a particularly sweet victory; but so would any of several others - e.g. Justice Kennedy. From an apologetic POV it would be a great testament to the Catholic faith and its efficacy.
But for now we must pray for the patience of God to live in us because living in this human skin makes patience something to often only hoped for and to little unseen.
BTW - Patti, yesterday I got my copy of the book your recommended me a while back on How NOT to Share Your Faith. It's proving to be excellent Lenten material. I found a copy on Amazon for $2.03! and I couldn't pass it up -- Brand New!! Thanks for the recommendation.
MonFrere
If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. G.K. Chesterton
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 10:30:21 PM
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I'm glad you like Mr. Brumley's book; I found it very helpful in avoiding some really big pitfalls, especially those toward which I tended! And you're right about the price being low enough to be affordable. Amazon's a great place for bargains sometimes. 
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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Jerry-Jet
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 6:38:57 PM
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Any priest who choses not to refuse giving Pelosi communion sacriledges it!
It's way PAST TIME talking about the issue--it's time for Catholic bishops and Catholic priests to wear the armor of Christ and do battle!
If a priest or a bishop will not defend the eucharist--then why should Jesus remember them in His kingdom? |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2009 : 8:47:19 PM
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Jerry-Jet
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 01:31:29 AM
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I might be wrong about this but say centuries ago--what would Calvin or Luther say about a person who advocated abortion and also expected to receive the Eucharist?
Wouldn't they have condemned such a thing?
Would Luther or Calvin said it would be OK to offer the eucharist to them if they were unrepentent?
Now look folks--if Luther and Calvin would have said that such a thing was wrong and that abortion was devilishly evil--what does it say about Catholic priests and Catholic bishops who posses the fullness of truth about the eucharist and DO NOTHING and offer it?!
Jesus said "Do not cast your pearls before the swine".
Isn't the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus more precious than any pearls?
And the notion that the unborn should be killed in their mother's womb--isn't such a notion LOWER than what any swine could conceive?
It doesn't take a tribunal of canon lawyers and a direct command and Ex Cathedra pronouncement of the Holy Father to do what is right!
If many individual Catholic priests and Catholic bishops aren't SERIOUS about protecting the Eucharist from being SACRILEDGED--why should people of the world take SERIOUS their proclamation of the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion?!
If Jesus could FORCIBLY overturn the tables of the money changers in the temple--is it too much to ask that Catholic priests and Catholic bishops defend the table of Our Lord at mass?! |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2009 : 9:02:43 PM
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It is generally the case that where the faith is newer, the clergy is more missionary in nature. When clergy in North America were on fire, those in the Old World were less so; when those in Europe were vigorously preaching and defending the faith, the clergy in the places where the faith first took hold were more blase. The faith is newest in places like Africa and Asia, so the clergy there are more fervently striving than in places like Canada, the USA, and Europe. This is really nothing new in the Church's history, but that also doesn't mean that we are to accept it as necessary. The point and purpose of Vatican II was to revive the missionary spirit in the Church where it already seemed established because, as the sixties onward proved, the infrastructure of the North American and European Church was not so strong after all.
Pope Benedict XVI has called for a new crusade, one of prayer, fasting and sacrifice to win back Europe. North America also needs it, as does the entire Church, but the pope's focus is on places where the faith is dying back to a listless apathy, which can and will kill it. The Church may never disappear from the face of the earth but that doesn't mean it can't disappear from this or that geographic location.
When Nancy Pelosi tried to highjack St. Augustine as a pro-choice poster boy, she caught it from bishops all over the USA. The potential for real shepherding was shown during that time, even from the usually apathetic USCCB, so we know they can teach when provoked. The real trick now will be praying, fasting and sacrificing so they keep on teaching even when not provoked.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 10:55:24 AM
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Patti
There ia no time when any part of the Church should not have it's missionary zeal. So the Popes call for prayer and fasting is spot on.
Yes it is true that Pelosi caught from some of the Bishops,more then in the past but still not enough.
William |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 11:49:15 AM
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quote:
...more then in the past but still not enough.
By what standards?
See, the phrase "not enough" bothers me. It's hard to say what is enough and isn't; if the Church pushes too hard, then the result could be a huge schism, millions of people cut off from the Body of Christ. It happened in the Eastern Schism, the Protestant revolt and the Anglican Schism. Now, of course, the popes weren't wrong to face down political and religious enemies of the Church but perhaps the policies used could have been better handled. There are so many armchair theologians (that doesn't mean you personally) who think they understand the true nature of the Catholic Church, when in reality that has been given only to the pope and bishops in the authentic episcopate who stay in union with Rome. This sort of critical thinking can be risky as it may lead to a "remnant mentality". Once we start judging the Church and her clergy with our own human understanding, we risk moving into error. By all means, point out problems and remember what Jesus told us to do in the face of them: Pray always, and drive out evil with fasting.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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Jerry-Jet
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 1:15:35 PM
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I tell you what is enough--Don't serve the Eucharist to "Catholic" legislators that support the MURDER of innocent babies!
What's so hard to understand about that?
What would Jesus say?
Would Jesus CARE what those legislators and other so called "Catholics" thought about the truth?
Jesus didn't stop them in John 6:66 from leaving--are you going to tell me that He'd stop them from leaving because they want to MURDER the unborn?
The Catholic Church cannot make the state do anything but the Catholic Church is responsible for what it does.
Satan LAUGHS with glee everytime the Catholic Church does nothing and lets abortion supporting legislators PROFANE the Eucharist.
It's not lay Catholic's jobs to decide what Catholic bishops and priests should do.
IT IS their job, though!
And they will be HELD to ACCOUNT for that job!
Let's pray with the ABORTED in Heaven that they will do what is right. |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 2:00:34 PM
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quote:
What would Jesus say?
What the Church says. Unfortunately, it's as hard to get His point across now as it was almost two millenia ago when it came from Christ Himself. We can pray for the bishops and beg them to do their jobs, all right, and hope that they will give Christ's authentic teaching. More and more of them are being clearer on what's right and wrong, but there's a lot of aftermath of Vatican II's highjacking by liberals that still needs to be worked through to effect the legitimate reforms called for by the council. FOCA, like Pelosi, may yet prove to be the catalyst by which the Catholic Church in the USA finds itself at enmity with those in public office who try to call evil "good". The bishops may yet prove more courageous than many people think.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
Edited by - Patti on 03/07/2009 2:01:54 PM |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 2:16:44 PM
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Patty
By what Standards in deed. By the standards set forth in the Gospel. By the standards of the Saints and martyrs. By the message of Christ that he said will divide.
We who profess to believe must tell the truth no-matter how it scandalizes our brothers who want a cafeteria stile Gospel.
I do not want to lose a single catholic butwe must not dilute the Gospel, because that is helping them to do things in their lives that may lead to their loss of salvation. I ask? What dose the Bible say about leaving our brothers in sin without talking to them.
I am pressed for time and must go. But my head is full of things so maybe later today I will post more.
This is our time to bare the cross of Christ, I pray we have the courage to do his will.
William |
Edited by - William on 03/07/2009 2:22:48 PM |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 2:49:10 PM
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I don't disagree with your points, William; I only wanted to post a reminder that there can be productive and counter-productive ways of approaching a problem. Pope Benedict XVI has been effecting changes, as had his predecessor. We can't see immediate results, but these reforms are shifting things.
My "by what standards" question was rhetorical, but your answers really don't clearly answer it. We're back to defining "By the standards set forth in the Gospel. By the standards of the Saints and martyrs. By the message of Christ that he said will divide." Who decides the answers you gave? We don't. The Magisterium does. That's not to say they always do it well. Sometimes they do it very poorly. But even a bad bishop like Judas Iscariot remained a bishop up until his death; his betrayal of Jesus (as big a public betrayal as one could imagine in all of history) did not cause his deposition by the others. The Apostles did not throw him out but gave him the rest of his short life to repent. Maybe they eventually would have; Scripture doesn't say. But they didn't jump on him. And when Scripture does record Paul getting all over Peter's case in Acts, the result is the twisting of the Scripture record by those opposed to Catholicism to try to disprove papal infallibility.
What then can we on the local level do? Thomas gave great a answer in another thread. The pope is the only one who can deal with erring bishops; Pope Leo XIII made it clear that the faithful have a right to help from the pope's office in serious situations. However, it's up to the Church to decide what's serious and what isn't. The bishops are speaking more like shepherds than before; Pelosi has been talked to about the seriousness of her actions. If she receives Holy Communion after having been warned about it, then the sin is on her. Even if she were publicly barred, what if she goes to a parish where she's not recognized? Or wore a disguise to avoid being recognized? See how many problems appear? Who is to cover them all? Should she and other pro-abortion politicians be forced to wear big letter A's? Or a t-attoo? Where do we draw the line at fighting for what's right while treating someone in error like a human being?
It's a big confusing mess, all right. And it'd be nice if there were simple clean answers. Hating sin and loving the sinner can be a real pain sometimes.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
Edited by - Patti on 03/07/2009 2:50:37 PM |
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Jerry-Jet
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 5:12:44 PM
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There is a charitable way to influence bishops.
Every single time a "Catholic" legislator who supports abortion sacriledges the Eucharist make an appointment with the bishop and tell him how much sorrow it brought you and ask if anything can be done about it?
Ask the bishop if he thinks it would be a good idea for you to make an appointment with that legislator and share with them the teaching of the Catholic Church?
If what I'm saying occurrs over and over again-every single day by countless numbers of Catholics--eventually the bishop may be as worn out as the unjust judge that Jesus taught about that finally gave in to a woman's petitions because they were repeated over and over again.
There isn't anything judgemental in the laity asking their bishop for help in dealing with sacriledge of the Eucharist--you wouldn't be judging him--you'd only be asking his help in dealing with the emotional hurt of it.
God hears the hurt of the just who cry out to him repeatedly in prayer--though sometimes to us it might seem that God is slow to act--God is not slow but does everything at the proper season.
Who knows--the continual cry of the laity might also be heard by God's bishops? |
Edited by - Jerry-Jet on 03/07/2009 5:14:25 PM |
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Jjane
Canada
1541 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 8:00:10 PM
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Well, more things are wrought by prayer alone ( God alone) and with Obama to deal with and the others
no such thing as too much prayer.
And no better time.
As the 40 days for life folks say: pray for conversion of all
including our front line soldiers - lay and clerical and religious. |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 9:03:11 PM
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Patti
If you can not see that we are at war, we are really in trouble.
I agree with Jerry. We have to find charitable ways to encourage our Bishops.
The one thing we can not do is stick our heads in the sand and hope these things go away.
In the history of the church there have been many lay people who have criticized bishops and Popes and effected change in the church. Catherin of Siena, St. Frances off Assisi. I am not trying to advocate any kind of rebellion. I am not trying to push aside people who think all we have to do is pray and God will bring everything into line with how I or {we} think. I am say that now is the time for us to take a stand and to give more then just lip service to the physical and the spiritual attacks on man kind.
It never has been easy being Catholic. I think that it is going to become more and more difficult as we enter into the next four years with a leader who is bent on pushing mans agenda and has no idea of Gods agenda.
Chesterton said that in a war it is not that we hate those who are in front and appose us. we fight for all those behind us. The martyrs of the early church fought with their blood because they would not conform. I am sure that our time is coming when we take a firm stand that we will be imprisoned lose our jobs have our faces slapped in the public square.
My Bishop has encouraged me to learn the teaching of Cardinal Ratzinger or Pope Benedict and to act on them.
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If FOCA becomes law then maybe my rant will have a little more teath.
If you think it can not happen just look at Canida. They probably could not even have a web site like this. They would we in court for ever. Jjane would have more of an insite on this then I.
William
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Edited by - William on 03/07/2009 9:13:50 PM |
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Jjane
Canada
1541 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 9:33:12 PM
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The Human Rights Tribunal is still around, but has suffered some defeats. That is the tribunal that took Mark Steyn to task, Ezra Levant and also the writer/editor of a Catholic magazine. The latter was because they said the publication was likely to incite hate toward homosexuals. It was tossed out by the way, and the magazine had always advocated loving the sinner not the sin - but they are still battling it out ,because someone launched an appeal.
Could we have a forum like this up here? I don't know , but we don't . This place is unique. |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 9:58:02 PM
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quote:
If you can not see that we are at war, we are really in trouble.... The one thing we can not do is stick our heads in the sand and hope these things go away.
I wish I could answer these, but there's a farmer who wants his strawmen back. 
It seems you believe I don't realize we're in a state of war with evil in the world. Ah, but what's the point of Confirmation, William? It makes us soldiers of Christ. Choose your weapon; I favor the rosary, so profoundly pro-life, if possible, prayed in front of a clinic when it's open.
quote:
In the history of the church there have been many lay people who have criticized bishops and Popes and effected change in the church. Catherin of Siena, St. Frances off Assisi. I am not trying to advocate any kind of rebellion.
Let's start with the St. Catherine of Siena myth, repeated even by good apologists who should really research it to ascertain the truth. When my husband joined the Third Order of Preachers (Dominican Tertiaries, of which Catherine was one), he had to study her life. She petitioned the Holy Father; she made herself a thorn in his side; she begged, wheedled, cajoled and counseled him to return to Rome. But she did not rebuke or criticize him. And as for St. Francis of Assisi, he sure as heck didn't rebuke or criticize the pope. It was the pope who had a dream about the little brown friar rebuilding the Church who embraced Francis with joy and listened eagerly to his ideas for reform. By the way, Chesterton's biography of St. Francis of Assisi is a great book.
And nobody here, least of all me, has accused you of or even thought you were advocating any rebellion.
And where did I say FOCA will never be law? It's possible that it will be broken up and slipped through via other legislation. The devil is a clever fellow. Of course, we must pray and be vigilant, so we're not devoured by his roaring mouth.
Please read the articles posted and, after that, give this one by Peter Kreeft a look (It's long but excellent):
http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/01_culture-war/culture-war_transcription.htm
Think I've got rosy glasses on or my head in the sand? Think again, my brother in Christ. I just see God's Hand in many things, reshaping them, especially in the Catholic Church that was damaged by the cultural storm after the Vatican II Council. There are plenty of weapons we could use to battle, but criticizing the Magisterium doesn't seem to be one of the better ones.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
Edited by - Patti on 03/07/2009 10:16:16 PM |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 10:27:19 PM
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Patti
I have taken the time to read each of the articles. I have no argument with any of them and I feel that they strengthen my position.
I hope that when I post I am coming across as a magisterial Catholic. I am not a radical traditionalist. I am not an in your face Catholic but I am one who will speak out when the teachings of he Church are being walk on and ignored. If I am ever outside magisterial teaching please jump on me with both feet.
My point to all this is that we have got to prepare for an all out assault on the dignity of man. I think that in reading your post over that you feel that I am a militant that is pushing my own agenda. I am a Catholic trying encourage people to be apart of the up coming struggle.
People like you and Philo have a wealth of information and I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you to the for front.
I wish I had access to your hard drive and to Philo's. |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 10:40:22 PM
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Hi, William,
I want you to know that I agree with you that we are at war with evil, and that evil is deeply rooted in our society. I only diverge as to method.
If you made it through Peter Kreeft's article, I hope it made a good impression on you. I know it helped me to see things in the world in a much clearer light. The hateful became the pitiable because of his insights. However, just because I pity them does not mean I won't try to stop them.
The two articles that philo sent me actually do not shore up any position per se but serve to point out that the teachings on excommunication are not well-known or widely disseminated, and it is not solely up to the bishops to make sure they are. Nor is it up to the priests, deacons and religious. All Catholics are called to learn the Church's teachings and stand up for them. We are to study our faith. Rob is reading the Catechism for Lent. That is an excellent idea, for foreknowledge of our faith means we're forearmed for battle. I think it was John Cardinal Newman who called for what he called "an educated laity", one that knows the faith as much as possible.
I am all in favor of fighting, but as Dr. Kreeft said, we must not fight fire with fire; that's how the world fights. We must fight fire with water. And we must become saints.
In order to do that, we must die to self, a difficult task and an impossible one without God's grace won for us by Christ, and see to our own spiritual house. Charity begins at home is not a platitude in that sense; it is essential. Without getting rid of our own baggage, we will be of little use in the war.
I'll pray for you (I pray every night for everyone here ) and ask that you please pray for me. And remember that the toughest battles aren't out in front of an abortion clinic but within ourselves as we struggle against sin. We need each other to grow in holiness.
God bless you and yours.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 10:46:07 PM
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When is asking a Bishop to up hold the teaching of the church more then being a thorn in their side. To Rebuke the Bishop would mean calling them out by name and trying to embarrass them publicly. Sending a Bishop a letter expressing our concern is not a rebuke. It might even be a moment ot teaching and learning as it was for me.
To critisize conditions in the Church is not a rebuke.
I wish we lived closer because I would bet you a steak dinner that FOCA in it's fullest agenda is only weeks from rearing it's ugly head. I pray your right. I still don't see any difference between a piece meal FOCA and an all out one time assult. |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 10:48:05 PM
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| I am going to the article now. |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 11:14:08 PM
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quote:
When is asking a Bishop to up hold the teaching of the church more then being a thorn in their side. To Rebuke the Bishop would mean calling them out by name and trying to embarrass them publicly. Sending a Bishop a letter expressing our concern is not a rebuke. It might even be a moment ot teaching and learning as it was for me.
To critisize conditions in the Church is not a rebuke.
I'm sorry, but St. Catherine and St. Francis are often invoked by people who advocate rebuking. Since you don't, that's good. But a letter of concern is not a rebuke, and criticism of conditions in the Church is not quite how "In the history of the church there have been many lay people who have criticized bishops and Popes and effected change in the church." came across; that seemed a more personal statement. I was concerned as to where that was going.
quote:
I wish we lived closer because I would bet you a steak dinner that FOCA in it's fullest agenda is only weeks from rearing it's ugly head. I pray your right. I still don't see any difference between a piece meal FOCA and an all out one time assult.
Obama has a bad moral compass on abortion but he isn't stupid. The last time a Democrat tried to push too much agenda too soon, he got flushed out of the White House, along with a sizable number of Democratic Congressmen. That president was Jimmy Carter.
Putting it through piecemeal is more deceptive and dangerous because it may succeed when an all-out effort would be noticed and resisted. Pro-lifers have to be watchful for that kind of sleight-of-hand because while the result would be just as evil, the breaking it into smaller pieces could be more likely to successfully make it under the radar.
You seem to think I don't believe FOCA is an imminent threat. Again, where did I say that? You're presenting an argument against a point I did not make, William.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2009 : 11:25:15 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Patti[/i]
[br]Hi, William,
I want you to know that I agree with you that we are at war with evil, and that evil is deeply rooted in our society. I only diverge as to method.
If you made it through Peter Kreeft's article, I hope it made a good impression on you. I know it helped me to see things in the world in a much clearer light. The hateful became the pitiable because of his insights. However, just because I pity them does not mean I won't try to stop them.
The two articles that philo sent me actually do not shore up any position per se but serve to point out that the teachings on excommunication are not well-known or widely disseminated, and it is not solely up to the bishops to make sure they are. Nor is it up to the priests, deacons and religious. All Catholics are called to learn the Church's teachings and stand up for them. We are to study our faith. Rob is reading the Catechism for Lent. That is an excellent idea, for foreknowledge of our faith means we're forearmed for battle. I think it was John Cardinal Newman who called for what he called "an educated laity", one that knows the faith as much as possible.
I am all in favor of fighting, but as Dr. Kreeft said, we must not fight fire with fire; that's how the world fights. We must fight fire with water. And we must become saints.
In order to do that, we must die to self, a difficult task and an impossible one without God's grace won for us by Christ, and see to our own spiritual house. Charity begins at home is not a platitude in that sense; it is essential. Without getting rid of our own baggage, we will be of little use in the war.
I'll pray for you (I pray every night for everyone here ) and ask that you please pray for me. And remember that the toughest battles aren't out in front of an abortion clinic but within ourselves as we struggle against sin. We need each other to grow in holiness.
God bless you and yours.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare.
I think we have always been on the same page. I think i have more of sense of urgency. I also know that we are each moved differently by the Holy Spirit.
Yes Patti piece be with you and your family Thank you for your time. |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 12:37:04 AM
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Patti
My use of the saints was only to say that lay people have always spoken out. Catherine chastised most of the Cardinals in her day,and she let them know when their narcissism was not good for the Church .
Contemporary indictment. One saint, however, was not perplexed. St. Catherine of Siena had been the strongest advocate of the papal return from Avignon to Rome, and now she entertained no doubt as to where the true pope resided. And indeed today St. Catherine's harsh words to the rebel cardinals seem but simple truth: "You would lead us away to the evil incarnate in yourselves; you would seduce us to obey Antichrist. 0 miserable men! Once you announced the truth to us, and now offer us lies. You wish to make us believe that you chose Pope Urban through fear; this is untrue. You may say: Why not believe us; as electors we know the truth better than you? My reply is that you have shown me how you deal with truth. If I examine your lives, in vain do I search for such virtue and sanctity as would deter you from falsehood out of conviction, What proves to me the validity of the election of Messer Bartolomeo, archbishop of Bari and now truly Pope Urban VI? The evidence afforded by the solemn celebration of his coronation, the homage that you gave him, and the favors which you have asked and received from him." But St. Catherine died on April 30, 1380, and Christendom heard no more of her blunt speech while a tumult of learned or impassioned arguments failed to solve the dilemma.
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 01:36:11 AM
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Patti
I would like to apologize. I miss read something in every post. At any rate you gave me some great reading.
I am having trouble with my eyes. I hope it is not my diabetes. I read poorly enough without more problems like that. |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 08:29:41 AM
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Hi, William,
One last small point of divergence: What St. Catherine addressed when she was stern was a group of schismatic clergy who had elected an anti-pope. It's a different situation than weak or worldly bishops who nonetheless stay in the Church and at least sometimes obey the pope. And it ought to be mentioned at this point that Catherine's sternness with the cardinals who'd rebelled against the authority of the duly elected pope failed to bring peace to the Church and reconciliation between the rebels and the Church. So, again, she was right but it was her method that may have not been the right one.
Dr. Ralph McInerney wrote in What Went Wrong With Vatican II that the strongest supporters of Humanae Vitae and Pope Paul VI were the bishops; it was the theologians, priests and nuns who rebelled against his authority. If we are too harsh and/or critical of the Magisterium in public, it gives the enemies of the Church fodder to say that the Church can't be the true one because of all the infighting.
So we agree on much and disagree on little. But we are not so far apart, after all; I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. And I know what you mean about having trouble reading sometimes. My eyes tire from reading a computer screen, too, and I don't have your medical difficulties. (Sorry to hear about the diabetes!) Thanks for the kind words and any prayers.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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William
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 1:32:00 PM
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Patti
Catherine was a great piece maker and defender. We have over four hundred of her letters which where spread all over Europe.
She influenced an enter generation while she was alive and after her dead the enter world. She did not back down and was not afraid to use words like idiot ,heretic,traitor and she did this with a style that caused little offense. She influenced not only the Church but also the politics of most of Europe.
St. Catherine is one of my favorite saints. She was a twin and I believe the 23 child of 25.
William |
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Patti
USA
7401 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2009 : 1:33:30 PM
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From today's homily at my local church by our newest associate pastor:
It's tempting to think that because we try to keep the Commandments, go to Mass, and receive the sacraments that we're deserving of God's special protection from suffering. He'll blanket us under His shield of protection to keep us from all harm and evil, right? Wrong. Being Christian means being part of Christ's Body, and His Body was beaten, humiliated, and crucified. God won't protect us from suffering but give us His grace to bear it in union with Christ's suffering on the cross. If you think that being Christian means being exempt from suffering, you're in the wrong Church. Unless you're prepared to suffer for your faith, even be a martyr, you're not really a Christian. It is in suffering patiently that we very clearly resemble Christ and this resemblance pleases the Father.
See, William? We are on the same page.
Yours in Christ,
Patti
Laudare, benedicere, praedicare. |
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Nancy Pelosi and FOCA
